Double Order For Carnival Corp.

28 Responses to Double Order For Carnival Corp.

1. Hank

   October 26, 2012 at 10:05 am

   OLDER TONNAGE? I sure hope that they aren’t talking about the S class of HAL. Thankfully, the ROTTERDAM (6th I believe) and the four other ships were all completed around the new millenium so they still have, like a decade or more. I might miss the FANTASY class from Carnival. Its ships are so much smaller.
2. Kenneth Eden

   October 27, 2012 at 4:46 am

   It is always exciting when new passenger ships are annopunced, and good news for the shipyards. Just the other day STX Europe and Fincantieri were sobbing due to lack of new builds with impending employment lay offs. This is indeed good news and should help to some extent the economies of those countries where the yards are located.

   As good as it sounds for the newbies, regardless of the line that is building them, the downside is that there will be sell offs, maybe of some much loved tonnage. I suppose it is inevitable, it is the same old cycle that has been the benefit and the bane of the industry. It is the competition, the “greening” of the industry as well as saving money in the long run. Two 99,000 tonners can take the place of four smaller ships, and less crew members are needed. Do I approve of such sell offs – no, but business is business, and profit is the bottom line.

   I just read that it takes $300,000.00 in dockage fees for the QUEEN MARY2 to dock in Brooklyn. Not cheap. A new modular cabin averages $195,000.00 each to build and they are pre fab for gods sake, so, does $400,000,00 for the average cruise ship to transit the Panama Canal seem like a bargain as well?

   We are talking major bucks here, a lot is at stake, and the best part, I for one, can pick and choose what ships and with what lines I will sail. Not a bad way to look at it.
3. Dirk Steffen

   October 27, 2012 at 5:23 am

   Sounds to me like time is running out for Prinsendam. Should she be on the sales list then, I really would hope she could join Germany’s Phoenix Reisen. She would be a great companion to Artania (ex-Artemis, Royal Princess) and, since their Albatros turns 40 next year, so the youngest Royal Viking Liner could replace the second-youngest Royal Viking Liner.
   She’d be a great addition to the German market – she has the right size and facilities. I keep my fingers crossed!
4. Dave in NJ

   October 27, 2012 at 7:24 am

   Well, new tonnage is a necessity if you want to keep attracting new clientele, so if the older ships to be sold off are in the HAL fleet it seems rather obvious they will be of the S-Class, after all by the time the new ship enters service the first of these, Statendam, will be about 23 years old. I very much like the S-Class, I’ve never really warmed up to the Vistas and later ships, and will miss them when their time comes; I’ll probably miss the Veendam the least due to the (in my view) unfortunate revisions which included the Retreat and the Lanai cabins. In terms of age alone Prinsendam is the oldest but lets hope she has more time left, we’ll never see the likes of her again within HAL. My first “big ship” experience was a transatlantic in ss Nieuw Amsterdam in 1965 so in that sense, I guess my perspective of new ships is warped forever.
5. Hank

   October 27, 2012 at 10:11 am

   I’m glad ROTTERDAM, AMSTERDAM, ZAANDAM, and VOLENDAM all have at least a decade left. The oldest will be ROTTERDAM. Which entered service in 1997 I’m pretty sure. and the youngest is the AMSTERDAM. So I figure ROTTERDAM will be the first to go. I wonder where it will go? The S class will be greatly missed when they go. My aunt and uncle travelled on the VEENDAM recently. They enjoyed themselves. I sure hope the new Holland America ship isn’t another Vista Class. I want something new. And maybe, if we’re lucky, a ship with a less boxy and nicer profile. And now they are building a third OASIS class vessel. Isn’t two enough?
6. Hank

   October 27, 2012 at 10:16 am

   I will miss PRINSENDAM too. The famous song lyrics by the Eagles comes to mind:

   Time keeps on slippin, slippin, slippin, into the future…
7. Peter Knego

   October 27, 2012 at 10:19 am

   That’s Steve Miller, Hank! –Peter
8. Hank

   October 27, 2012 at 2:40 pm

   Haha! Well I’m off. I just remember my parents listen to that and the Eagles! And that’s bad that I got that wrong because my mom and my grandmother (her mom) have been music teachers. And my mom still is.
9. Clive Harvey

   October 27, 2012 at 2:56 pm

   Fascinating indeed to try and imagine what will become of ‘the elderly’ tonnage, be it from Carnival, HAL or any of the other units of the Carnival Corporation. They have a ban on selling their older ships to ‘competitors’, particularly so after P&O complained when Prinsendam was about to be sold to Fred Olsen Cruises. Basically, I think the Carnival Corporation will find themselves stuck with ships that they don’t want but are unwilling to sell – quite apart from the fact that there are now only a small handful of companies out there that are not already owned by Carnival, RCI or NCL.
   Just think for a moment; if all the HAL Statendam-class ships were all put up for sale tomorrow who is in a position to buy them?
10. Glenn L.

    October 27, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    I agree with Dave in NJ although I Love HAL’s Vistas. Sailed Veendam twice since her unfortunate metamorphosis, The second time was Aug 2011, she was run down even after a drydocking to repair her bow and resurface the retreat after all the new retreat’s tile popped up by the pound. The ship is now also unable to meet her new air conditioning demands. Her new Lanai cabins draw in outside air that her original chillers did not have the capacity to handle. I noticed that the last drydocking did not include refurbishments to her interior wear and tear leading me to believe that she will be the first to go. Sad.
11. Hank

    October 27, 2012 at 9:44 pm

    Oh, I think the Vista class are nice. They have a pleasant feel to them. It just kind of takes away the “wow factor” when there are 12 identical ships.” It’s amazing how each vista ship has something of an identity. I still cannot believe a third OASIS ship is coming. When will Carnival decide it needs a ship of similar size (if ever). Honestly, Oasis and Allure are too overstem for me. 6,000 people on a floating hull with two buildings floating on top…it is a genius idea though. I find it amazing that I consider even ships from the 90′s as “vintage.” I even find the FANTASY class ships kind of nice. At least those Carnival ships aren’t as overstem as the Carnival Dream or Carnival Magic are. And one, the CARNIVAL INSPIRATION, leaves from Long Beach. So I can go spend a night on the wonderful QUEEN MARY, and then embark the next day. I do find the FANTASY class kind of angular, but nice.
12. alan dumelow

    October 28, 2012 at 1:19 am

    Although it is believed Statendam is on the S&P market(at a price) HAL will, of course, deny it. More likely that, as new ships come in to Mr,Carnival’s fleets, the older tonnage will be passed down to the Groups’ smaller subsiduaries like Ibero or P&O Australia, or even
    a new Asian subsiduary in the offing. And, of course, Princess need to replace their ex Renaissance ships that are on the market.
    Yes Dirk, it would be great if Phoenix took Prinsedam to replace the
    Albatros, but that would be handing Aida’s competor an advantage.
13. Kenneth Eden

    October 28, 2012 at 3:24 am

    The PRINSENDAM, if and when and maybe and probably may, be sold, who knows? I think the ship is a perfect little beauty, and if and when it is to leave the fleet, she is a looker and probably will find a great new home. The problem with the PRISENDAM, when sailing as the ROYAL VIKING SUN she, as PRINSENDAM, was more popular and state of the art than the three origianl RVL ships.

    My thoughts on Holland America, yes, several of their ships where bastardized with lanais, piano bars removed, and worse, and my favorite HAL ship MAASDAM reaped the disgrace of these futile modernizations as well.

    I have sailed HAL Vistas, and personally I do not care for them. As Carnival and Costa ships on the exterior they look better, as HAL ships, not so. Maybe its the near black HAL eggplant paint? Where the VISTA class shines are with the QUEEN VICTORIA and QUEEN ELIZABETH, the grand high celinings, sweeping stairways and broad corridors are stunning. The aft of the QE is somewhat put-offish, to “blockish”, those extra cabins, you know. Sailing thes ehsips I can assure you is one fine compliment to the QUEEN MARY 2 in their fittings.

    Last year we tried HAL’s newbie, NIEUW AMSTERDAM, and were looking and hoping for something special, well, the ship inside and out was a let down, as was the food and the service. We could not wait for the 14 day Med cruise to end, it was truly off-putting.

    And Clive is correct, who will buy the the Statendam Class ships?
14. e.f.johnson

    October 28, 2012 at 7:14 am

    We have a lot of fond memories of the Fantasy class ships. Sailed on the Fantasy out of Miami when she was brand new, and 3 times since. Our most recent was about 3 years ago on the 5 night run to Grand Turks and the Holland America private island. Had a great New Years eve cruise on the Fascination out of San Juan about 1996, and again in 1998 for the total solar eclipse in Aruba(where the large amount of deck space was definitely a plus). Even though we recently were on the Dream for a family cruise, we definitely prefer the more manageable size of this older class.
15. Clive Harvey

    October 28, 2012 at 7:21 am

    I think that Alan has rather missed my point regarding Carnival’s older ships. He suggests that they will be passed down to the Group’s subsidiary companies, Ibero, P&O Australia and such.
    Yes, that could happen but it does not take into account that the P&O Australia fleet is already quite large. Indeed, all the Carnival subsidiaries seem to have ‘enough’ ships to cope with demand. But on the assumption that several ships are moved on to the subsidiary companies, then they will have ‘older tonnage’ that they need to get rid of – and then the question has to be asked again, to whom? Maybe we’ll have to get used to seeing relatively young ships being sent off to the breakers yards, ships of barely 20 years old.
    Alan mentions a proposed Asian subsidiary of Carnival. I suppose that could be the answer: keep on creating new subsidiary companies to absorb your old tonnage. It’s called total market domination!
16. Kalle Id

    October 28, 2012 at 7:54 am

    If subsidiaries of Carnival Corp. can’t sell to “competitors”, that leaves precious few lines who they could actually sell to. Louis Cruises is a potential alternative, though whether or not they need new tonnage is a different question. Japanese cruise lines, if they’re willing to buy second-hand tonnage. And to be honest, so are Phoenix and the other small German lines as they do compete in a very different market segment from Aida.

    Overall, I think it’s also a matter of what is the most economically sensible proposition. Selling to a competitor could still be done if the company makes more money from it than from selling the ships for scrap. And let’s remember that Carnival have, in the past, sold and chartered ships to brands that nmore or less directly compete with their own.
17. Dirk Steffen

    October 29, 2012 at 1:38 am

    Alan, as Kalle wrote just above, Phoenix and AIDA are not really competitors. They cater to different clienteles, and the only similarity to me is that Phoenix finally has a ship with a buffet restaurant. Entertainment, age range, duration of the journeys – all very different.
    Compared to AIDA, with my 36 years I was veeeeery young aboard ARTANIA recently.
    Kalle, I think Phoenix are willing to purchase second-hand tonnage in the future. If the ship is really suited to their demands or easily convertible, it comes much cheaper than a newbuild.
    They had had an eye on ARTEMIS for years before actually being able to purchasing her. (Of course they had no idea how extremely run-down she would be at handover!)
    Phoenix had even considered a newbuild, but as far as I know shelved that idea for money reasons.
    And seeing what Phoenix has done to make Artania the much-loved German cruise liner she is now, they sure can do so again and I hope they’ll have the chance on charming little bow-dented Prinsendam. I just recovered the reworked deck plans of her I did last year during flu season…yes, she’d be a hit!

    About a possible sale of the S-Class – yes, its hard to tell. Each of them is gt 55,000+, and what small company could afford them? No doubt none of the big ones would buy them. Or be able to since Carnivore wouldn’t sell to them. Louis I don’t think. They’re in much troubled waters and tend to sell off their oldies to get some cash.
    That seems to be a big problem – those “giants” (from the view of rather small companies) are being or have been built for the demands of the industry’s giants. And once the ships have done their duty and become surplus, there’s no other company who could use them – just because the companies are too small and the ships are too big.
18. alan dumelow

    October 29, 2012 at 4:07 am

    Clive: No, not really missing the point: just looking at historical facts. HNA China recently took P&O Australia’s hand-me-down “Pacific Sun” ex “Carnival Jubilee”. PeaceBoat now have P&O Australia’s first generation Carrnival “Tropicale” aka “Pacific Star”/”Costa Tropicale”
    and who can forget the laid up “Atlantic Star” ex P&O Australia and
    Princess hand-me-down. Currently, I’d say P&O Australia need to get rid of the odd-ball ’89-built hand-me-down “Pacific Pearl” ex “Ocean
    Village” ex P&O “Arcadia” ex “Star Princess” ex “Fair Majesty” and, if Spain weren’t in recession, Ibero could replace their 85/87 built Carnival hand-me-downs with newer surplus Group tonnage. And looking forward, China and Taiwan are looking for newer/bigger ships, and South Korea’s Harmony are looking for a bigger better ship to replace
    the old Costa “Marina”. Personally, I’d like to ask Mr.Carnival to sell a surplus ship to Oman Investments so that company doesn’t ruine
    our beautiful, restored floatel and museum “Rotterdam”.
19. Kenneth Eden

    October 29, 2012 at 6:37 am

    Is this a new plateau in the cruise industry, too many ships, not compliant to the currrent demands of passengers?

    If so, it is sad, since so many ships that are not up-to-snuff and not able to compete, for whatever reasons, are deemed unworthy of their owners, thus, not wanted.

    One reason and it is a major one, for the cruise lines, two smaller ships can be replaced by one larger one, carry more perhaps, add luxe accommodations and collect more revenue, and hire a smaller number of crew members, and charge extra for alternative dining venues. Money makes the world go round, and cruise lines are profit making corporations.

    Another old go round, travel agent commisions – NCL, Carnival and RCI have cut the commissions paid in Europe to travel agents from 15% to 10%. This has been tried many times over the years, and when the TA community has had enough of this cheap slap in the face, appologies, and a reversal to the 15% returns.

    There are some very good cruise line charter operators around, they may take some of the “supposed” ships that will “perhaps” leave a fleet, and that is good. Beware, there are the schlockers, who have no funds to adequately operate a ship, we see it time and again.

    Just as we learn of the “supposed demise” of ships that have not been given the axe or have not been transfered, the COSTA ALLEGRA is being torched and scrapped at Aliaga right now. She looks as though she was picked up and thrown to the ground. Is that a fitting reason to build even more ships, scrap and build?
20. Clive Harvey

    October 30, 2012 at 2:06 pm

    Kenneth, who are these “very good cruise line charter operators” that may take the “supposed” ships that will “perhaps” leave a fleet?
    Also, who are those “schlockers” without funds to adequately operate a ship?
21. geoff

    October 31, 2012 at 5:23 am

    just look into the owners list for Song of Norway, since she left Airtours/Mytravel in 2005 its been one disaster after another
    several old ships have similar fates
22. Kenneth Eden

    October 31, 2012 at 6:24 am

    Clibve

    I am sure you can fathom that out for yourself, just look at the ships that have failed, been arrested a so forth…..not to mention the woes “perportably and alleged” of crew members on some chartered ships
23. Peter Kohler

    October 31, 2012 at 6:41 am

    Interesting comments re. HAL. I have sailed in EURODAM once and NIEUW AMSTERDAM twice and like them better than MAASDAM and yes the old ROTTERDAM (in terms of food and service). I think HAL have ruined the “S” class with those misbegotten “improvements” and won’t go near them now… anyone who has sailed HAL will cringe at the idea of sharing a single outdoor pool with the legion of children aboard most sailings.

    The fact is that the VISTAs work more efficiently and have all of the features HAL thinks are needed now… I personally hate when lines feel obliged to convert, cram and contrive new things into older tonnage… it almost never works. The S class are a perfect example and they lack adequate outside deck space with added children’s facilities etc. The VISTAs, especially EURODAM and N.A. have the best and most ample deck space of any ship afloat and one never feels crowded aboard either. I have long since given up on what a ship looks like but judge them on their sense of space, efficiency, food and service for the price paid and for these reasons, rank these two as among the best ships I’ve sailed on.. far superior to say QM2 with her appalling layout and tacky decor.

    Anyway, I do love the artiface of the “99,000 grt” HAL liner… it will most likely be 99,998 grt and thus still advertised as “an intimate, personalized sized ship in the HAL tradition”!
24. Kenneth Eden

    October 31, 2012 at 9:38 am

    Peter Kohler

    At last someone that really does not care about the ships “looks” and cares mostly about what the cruise line and the product that is offered by the cruise line, as I certainly feel, is more important than the facade.

    Speaking of outdoor deck space, the QUEEN MARY2 has acres and acres of real teak, gorgeously maintained.

    I have had the feeling that so many gripe about a ship and its looks and have never sailed in/on or anywhere near a specific ship and post their feelings.

    How can one dislike a ship, if they have not sampled it first hand?

    As for Holland America, we avoided it for years, long before Carnival bought them out. Reason? Took the SS ROTTERDAM in 1971, just after the Dutch crew was canned. That ROTTERDAM cruise was hell at sea and thus, we avoided HAL.

    Then, comes along Carnival, boasting several years ago that the MAASDAM would home port in Norfolk, 90 minutes away from our home. Yippy! Well, we took 5 cruises in 18 months on her, and voilla, Carnival pulled her out after Norfolk built a now ueseless 35$million cruise port was built- go figure. Not useless, really, Carnival did 3 5 dayers this year.

    We have enjoyed cruises in ZUIDERDAM and WESTERDAM, as well as other HAL ships, that will not be named they were so awful. The hype for the NIEUW AMSTERDAM was not what we found when we sailed her, decor blah, service and food spotty. No more HAL for us.

    I think it is as important to like or dislike a ship inside as well as outside, and for all aspects offered during a sailing.
25. Clive Harvey

    November 1, 2012 at 5:54 am

    Kenneth, I do certainly care about what a ship looks like externally. Now I can and do very easily dismiss 99% of the world’s cruise fleet as ‘not for me’ but that is as much to do with their actual size as well as appearance. I do not wish to be aboard a cruise ship that is carrying 2, 3 or 4 thousand passengers. Yes, I can hear people saying now that you are blissfully unaware of those vast numbers when you are aboard but the fact is that once your ship has docked in some charming and idyllic place it suddenly becomes over run with your fellow passengers. So yes, I can gripe about the majority of cruise ships but as they are not aimed at me there isn’t much point in doing so.
    Like you, I have travelled aboard a vast number of ships, former liners and purpose-built cruise ships. That means over those years one has acquired experience and knowledge. We are able to work out for ourselves what ship or cruise line is most likely to suit us. Of course, if one has plenty of time and money then you can afford to take the risk and experiment: take a couple of weeks aboard the Queen Victoria, Emerald Princess or Disney Magic just for the hell of it and to see if you might actually like it. I have neither plenty of time nor plenty of money to waste in that way, when I book a cruise I want to be sure that I will (in all probability) enjoy the ship and the itinerary. Yes, the food and service are also very important but there have been occasions, such as a cruise aboard Discovery, where the ship and itinerary were of prime importance, which was just as well for while the service was fine the food was very unremarkable.
    A few years back I was at an event where I was talking to Commodore Warwick, then Master of the Queen Mary 2. He asked if I would be sailing aboard the ship at some time. When I replied that I thought it unlikely as she was far too large for my tastes he became almost apoplectic saying “But that’s the way ships are now!!”
    It was almost as though he were saying but we’ve built them, now you’ve got to sail on them. Well, I suppose that is what Mr Arison would like…….:)
26. Shawn Dake

    November 1, 2012 at 10:26 am

    The FUTURE SHIPS section of Maritime Matters has been freshly updated as of today. It includes 22 ships presently ordered or under construction, including the two new orders mentioned in this story. Click Future Ships on the tool bar or use this link:
    http://maritimematters.com/future-ships/
27. Peter Kohler

    November 2, 2012 at 9:14 am

    Kenneth…. I should say I wish I could care what ships look like externally. But I have long since given up. I’ve been lucky to have sought out, sailed in and enjoyed some of the “greats” from FRANCE in 1974 to some of the last survivors into the late 1990s. But those days are gone and they are never coming back. I still enjoy a cruise for the holiday aspects and so yes, it’s easier to stop squinting and trying to conjure up images of the 1938 NIEUW AMSTERDAM when looking at the present one and better and more gratifying to enjoy a really good product at a great price and be content with that.
28. Kenneth Eden

    November 3, 2012 at 6:12 am

    I guess the jury is out with wrestling between the looks of the ship or what a given product has to offer. For me what it comes down to is the product, from stateroom comfort, to crew and their professionalism and of course the dining, as well as other factors.

    Some of the newest ships I have enjoyed, I have rediscovered Celebrity Cruises, and they have met my finicky expectations, even surpassed them.

    The best part of a new monster ship, maybe ugly to some on the exterior, is that when inside, it is a whole new ballgame.

    I will always remember with great fondness the ships of yore and my cruises taken in them, and await the new ships that hopefully will please, and avoid ones that I perceive may not .

    As Clive stated, 99% of ships are not for him, nor for me either.

    As Peter Kohler states, enjoy a really good product at a great price.

    Who could argue here? I totally agree.

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